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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/14/2007 9:07 AM |
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| I originally thought that the Toasted Concept portion of this site was dedicated to concepts fellow JaMusers created. However, after browsing some of the so called "concepts", this doesn't appear to be the case at all.
What's the deal JaMuse? Are you serious about this site? Or am I just missing the point of this destination???
Why on earth would you trump REAL killed concepts that may benefit from worthy discussions for BS video's uploaded from other sites?
If i wanted to watch so-called "funny video's" not created, developed or related to anyone here, I'd go to YouTube.
I would suggest that if you truly want this site to be taken seriously, then don't waste our time with random things YOU think are funny. |
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_sobule design
Posts:41
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| 10/14/2007 5:00 PM |
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| It's my understanding that the toasted concepts are those that were client-killed or for whatever other reason, aborted. Another thread on the subject here> http://www.jamuse.com/Discussions/tabid/54/forumid/3/postid/66/view/topic/Default.aspx
cheers,
aleks. |
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/14/2007 5:46 PM |
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Aleks, that was my understanding as well. However, after checking out some concepts this morning, i came across the following "supposedly" Killed Concepts http://www.jamuse.com/ViewAsset.aspx?fileID=1169 & http://www.jamuse.com/ViewAsset.aspx?fileID=2545
It's obvious that these video's are not client killed concepts, yet attempts to share "funny" or interesting video's YouTube style.
While i have absolutely NO problem with users posting old school commercials, classic spots, or random funny things to watch, I DO take issue with it being marked as a "Toasted Concept". Especially when those video's end up trumping REAL client killed work on the main page. From my perspective i would rather see REAL work from REAL jamusers. But again, i say this assuming i have not misunderstood the idea surrounding jamuses view on toasted concepts. If the killed concept section IS in fact for that type of posting, then I'll shut up. Bit if it's not, then i suggest creating another spot to show off the funny clips an leave the toasted concepts section for learning and inspiration.
-Alex |
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_sobule design
Posts:41
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| 10/14/2007 7:25 PM |
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Oh cripes, we're both Alex(ks)es....
Gotcha. Alright, while I'm behind the idea of sharing funny stuff other people, yeah I'd understood the concept here as sharing one's own stuff. Maybe a specific section for links to other artist/designers would be appropriate in this case? Nothing wrong with handing props to others that are influential or otherwise — it just needs its own venue.
cheers,
aleks. |
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/14/2007 8:40 PM |
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Yeah, both Alex(ks)es, and both of our badges have photo's that make us look like we're running for "Pimp of the Year".
And i agree about spotlighting the humorous. I love funny clips just as much as the next person. But when I navigate to a spot in a website expecting to view one thing and i am hit with another, it makes me feel as if the site isn't concerned about their users. That said, i know in this case it's probably just jamuse trying to add quantity but, it looks like the site is at the point where there are enough users with Killed Concepts that it doesn't need this boost anymore. Therefore, i think they need to move the content to another showcase that spotlights the humor and let the KC showcase do it's job.
Enjoy,
Alex |
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Director Fox
Posts:48
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| 10/15/2007 8:30 AM |
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| Alex in glasses #3 weighing in here ... First of all, I agree completely that if a user didn't make it, it shouldn't be posted. However, I'm not sure why you're taking such a harsh, accusatorial tone. The people building the site are obviously working quite hard, and by inviting us to view their work in progress, have repeatedly indicated that they are open to feedback. Simply saying, "I think that Toasted Concepts should only be for Jamuse user-generated content" would have been perfectly adequate, and much more polite. |
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David Fritsche, Founder
Posts:239
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| 10/15/2007 11:06 AM |
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Thanks again guys. The Alex'es are busy...I think we actually had 5 Alex's on the phone Friday. :-)
I think we mentioned in another forum, that we have already slated "Toasted" to go back to "client killed." The only problem with content is that we made this section user controlled and some of the content is not truly killed. Most of the videos, I believe were killed or pulled, especially the one's you mentioned...from a creative advertising perspective, this is more a section to view what not to do. |
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/15/2007 2:53 PM |
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Fox -
First off, nice specs. Gucci??
Secondly, thanks for your opinion.
Now, allow me to retort.
No doubt my original post came across a little harsh. I noticed this as well after re-reading my submission. Unfortunately, given the forum software in use, there was no "edit post" feature that i saw. Otherwise, i probably would have toned it down a bit (although probably not much).
The words that ended up here flowed directly from my internal frustrations with jamuses current structure. However, it's probably important to note that studies have shown more of than not, the written word online (in both email and this type of forum) tends to come across way more harsh than the authors intention. I would certainly toss my original post into that category.
That being said, i was (and still continue to be) generally frustrated with the functionality, navigation and overall confusing direction of the current site. So chances are, your interpretation (and the interpretations of those who may follow), are probably not that far off base.
To be honest with you, in most other cases, i wouldn't have even bothered to address my frustration. I would have simply moved on and left Jamuse in my virtual dust. BUT, i try to be a man of my word. And in this case I made a commitment to Bruce regarding my participation on the advisory panel. Plus...I see some great potential in Jamuse.
At no time do i want other members of the community or Jamuse's creators, developers, etc. to think i am being disrespectful of the companies efforts trying to assemble this complicated puzzle. I applaud them for the work thus far. And, I am honored that i have been given the chance to both experience and participate in it's future development.
However, on the flip-side, I believe Jamuse is still VERY much in it's infancy. And in my opinion we, as voluntary beta testers and members of the advisory panel, have an obligation to help advise Jamuse how to best steer this puppy into the arms of the worlds creative mainstream. From my perspective, I consider this to be great opportunity for us to help champion a kick-ass community - one that creative minds & talent from ALL disciplines can be proud to call their own.
So, In some respects, the direct nature of my post was intended to stir up the pot a little. And who knows, maybe it can spark what appears to be a relatively silent community (a statement i am basing on my observation of the number of registered users versus those who seem to actually speak out). Oddly enough, i actually WANTED other jamusers or, the sites creators, to read my post and say "Who the eff is this joker? Let me chime in and set the record straight". Or, "hey, i see his point. Let's figure out a better way to achieve the best of both worlds. Here is my solution".
(As a side note, you may find it humorous that as i type this response my inbox is being filled with automated notifications of responses to my posts. Should be interesting to see how badly i get flamed for this :D. Never the less, i think this is is a GOOD sign. Hopefully now we can collectively start some good dialogue as to the best way to skin this cat.)
So, to end this painfully long reply and to summarize my point, the bottom line is this:
From my experience (running both large multi-million dollar agencies with numerous teams AND small start-ups with no teams) the best and most productive organizations (or organisations if you will, for our fellow jamusers abroad), groups, teams and other solutions/cause oriented platforms are at their most effective when a) there is clarity in the their purpose (hence my post about Jamuses Mission & Vision statement) and b), their participants actively engage each other in open and constructive positive conflict concerning future direction, goals and strategies.
As it stands, in looking at Jamuse, I don't see either. And since i have not yet been privy to "a", i am simply trying to do my part with the latter.
Again... thanks for jumping in on this post. I hope i was able to answer your questions - or at the very least - provide some insight on me and what i am about.
Best,
Alex
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Director Fox
Posts:48
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| 10/15/2007 3:27 PM |
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Thanks ... They're DKNY ... The LensCrafter special. : )
I appreciate your well-reasoned and thoughtful response. I also appreciate what you're trying to do, as well as your sense of frustration ... I guess it's just that I've lived in the South long enough to feel that it's generally easier to catch flies with sugar than vinegar. However, that may not be the case if - as you explain - your objective is to provoke response.
I gather that you've been posting on a lot of separate discussion topics. Have you written out (or - more likely - copied and pasted) a comprehensive bullet list of everything you think needs to be addressed? If you start up a new discussion topic with your overall manifesto as the opening message (sort of like the "unified theory" posts that people start for TV programs like "Heroes" and "Lost"), I would love to take a look at it, and get the feedback ball rolling.
P.S. One advantage of most people not participating is that those of us who do have something specific to say have a much greater chance of being heard (dare I use the term "share of voice" in this slightly incorrect context?)
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Allan Burch
Posts:61
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| 10/15/2007 4:31 PM |
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Alex,
I agree with you on just about every point. I have some posts sprinkled around the boards echoing much of what you say, especially with regard to navigation, mission statement, intuitiveness, and functionality. I believe a new home page is on its way which I'm hoping will address all of these issues. I've been personally withholding further judgement until I get a glimpse of the new digs, at which point I'll certainly be offering my thoughts.
Like everyone, I want to see Jamuse become an outstanding resource for the creative professional and something I could recommend without hesitation.
Allan |
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_sobule design
Posts:41
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| 10/15/2007 5:49 PM |
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Ditto to the above statements — let's reserve some judgement until the new homepage and nav tweaks have propagated.
Alex (#3) (Fox?) I agree with your suggestion: Alex (#2) throw down your wishlist in a new thread and we'll take it from there.
The more we talk the more can come out of our discussions! |
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/15/2007 9:15 PM |
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Gentlemen:
Much appreciated for continuing the dialogue.
Allan - Glad to see you've felt my pain too. Your suggestion to hold back with further feedback until the new page arrives is a wise one. I just learned about this earlier today. I'm with you in your hopes for it to address some of the challenges we have experienced.
Fox (aka. A3) - Kudo's to you for calling me on the carpet. In my previous life as a CEO, I always told my management teams never allow another team member to drop off new challenges in your in box and simply leave. If they discover something that needs to be addressed, they should at the very least bring one solution to the table. Luckily for me, i am used to putting my money where my (big) mouth is :). So, to answer your question, i do have a running journal with observations and potential solutions. That said, i'm going to hold off on posting until the new beta of the home page arrives.
Aleks - Who said you could be Alex(ks) #1???? To quote " Alex (#2) throw down your wishlist in a new thread and we'll take it from there." If you want to be at the top of the "Alex(ks)" hierachy, go start your own thread, dude! :) |
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/15/2007 9:16 PM |
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| PS. I stand corrected. There is in fact an edit feature. Whoops. |
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Aaron Lea
Posts:4
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| 10/15/2007 9:31 PM |
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Yeah, I found the edit feature last night :)
-A |
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Director Fox
Posts:48
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| 10/16/2007 9:14 AM |
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Sounds great ... I'm looking forward to seeing the site overhaul, and reading your responses.
I've also taken my own advice, and started a discussion thread regarding JAM file functionality. Please feel free to weigh in!
http://www.jamuse.com/Discussions/tabid/54/view/topic/postid/248/ptarget/250/Default.aspx |
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_sobule design
Posts:41
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| 10/16/2007 9:27 AM |
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Hey A2, I'm not assuming I'm A1..... I think of myself as Aks1 (maybe I'll get a time machine and move to Brooklyn circa 1982....).
So I guess that leaves the position of A1 open to the first bidder ;) |
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harroyo
Posts:9
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| 10/17/2007 3:03 AM |
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nerg,
I like the open discussion, but must also say that I do not care for the tone as it is condescending and closed minded. Does't help open discussion although as you say, it does stir the pot. I know Alex pointed this out, but I think your continued posts are pretty one sided and similar in tone. My purpose is to look for new talent to help with client needs and this may turn out to be a great source from what I see so far.
I admit I did not start here in the USA, but in the past 21 years I have learned to listen and learn. You seem way off base with your initial comments. I appreciate inspiration, where it comes. How do you know they are not related to people on the site? A little judgmental in my view. Even if they are not, these videos are creative and inspirational. I read on the site news that one of the founders is actually a personal advisor to Apple and with a small amount of research - Steve Jobs...perhaps the content is from a source that does have the creative...in either case, some of it is great and inspiring. In any case, why not ask, instead of blast.
Closed minds mean closed ideas. I do not agree with Alex about "well reasoned". You may have stirred my pot a little, but I certainly agree with constructive opinions, but I also want to make sure I do so with constructive intentions. I look forward to more ideas and open-minded creative people in open-minded discussions. Not sure I see this in this topic. I see a strong personality swaying nice people.
1. Is the purpose clear?- I do not see a better site dedicated to creatives (see my other posts). I do know of several, but wow, just the upload utility blew me away - never seen anything like it even in NY.
2. Is the purpose communicated clearly - No. But I like the home page and guess what? The site is not even open yet.
3. Infancy - A little presumptuous for a site that is not open yet, but that seems to be head and shoulders above sites that have been out for 11 years...yet it could be...and I think will be, better.
4. Silent majority - probably me and many more like me. Should we speak up, yes. But honestly your tone would keep most away. You seem upset about some unknown expectation. (Typing negativity aside) Bruce has been very helpful to me and very open to my ideas. So far all my communications and requests have been private.
5. I would suggest to the rest of us out here to not be drawn into this same pattern as it tells me you may be difficult to work with. Probably every client we have takes part of our advise/work and not all. It may make us upset, but when turned around, when we are the client, we understand that we can not see all from their perspective. I once had a copywriter throw a water bottle (22L) out a window because a client changed his text. While I understand, I do not see this as a mature response. If nerg has run a company, I would think his tone would show some degree of curiousity and not only criticism. Why not ask first my point.
Didn't mean to stay up all night and repond, but I think this is a clear and great idea that is getting better everyday.
The silent one speaks. Be nice!
H.
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n/er/g communications
Posts:24
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| 10/18/2007 12:16 AM |
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H -
Thanks for your response. I can't say i appreciate the personal slams (close minded, etc), but never the less, any time people publicly share their thoughts it opens the door for advancement on a subject. I applaud you for reaching out.
In your response to me you mentioned that you use jamuse for finding creative talent. I think that's great. And i am glad that you find yourself satisfied with it. For me, I have little to no reason to use jamuse for that purpose.
Instead, i see myslef using jamuse in two areas. First, as a true creative social community where i am able to network & collaborate, discover inspiration in other creative peoples work or learn something new from a seasoned veteran. Second on my list would definitely be to use it as a client collaboration tool (a la museworx).
Over the past few weeks i have spent considerable time exploring both of those pieces described above. None of which have seemed to work as easy as advertised, if at all. I find this very disappointing and frustrating. Especially considering i have been told these pieces are the core elements of jamuse. I think anyone in their right mind would probably find this to be just as frustrating as i have. To me, i feels as if i were asked to fly to Italy for a chance to test drive a new 500hp concept Ferarri. However, upon my arrival, they toss me the keys to a cute little Honda Civic on steroids. While you personally may be cool with this simply because it's painted in your favorite color and faster than anything you have ever driven, doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to voice my displeasure with the situation. Nor does it give you the right assume that i am "close minded and possibly difficult to work with". Simply because I have a higher level of expectations and standards than you, doesn't make me a bad guy with who's "trying to sway good people with my strong personality."
Like you, I too run my own firm. And at my agency we're in business to serve, develop and support our clients brand experience, creative expectations and top line growth. Equally as important to our business philosophy is striving to provide great careers that support our team members and their families. As i am sure you know, trying to achieve this utopia takes a great amount of focus, energy and time. The latter of which i find to be the most precious and valuable.
Therefore, in the cases where i do choose to donate my time and get involved with a good cause (be it helping a friend, a charity or whatever) versus spending that time with my family or growing my agency, then i expect those who i am assisting to have the same passion and accountability for their project or organization. So, if for some reason things don't appear to be what i expected, or if i see confusion, challenges or inconsistencies with the original intent, you better believe that I am going to call them out on it. Not doing so, in my experience, only leads to animosity, additional wasted time, and/or a complete loss of interest all together.
I was hoping to avoid all three here on jamuse. Hence, my original post.
I apologize if you (or anyone else) took offence to my tone in the post. Believe me, that was never my goal.
That said, like it or not H, i am not here to sugar coat my assessments or a** kiss the sites founders, executives or developers. Nor, am i here to always "be nice", or make you (or anyone else with your view on this situation) feel all warm and fuzzy with with my words. I am here to help make this community great by providing my honest, professional feedback. Good, Bad or indifferent. Take it, or leave it.
Finally, if you think MY tone was in poor taste, just wait until people start spending their hard earned money on a site that doesn't live up to their expectations. I think you will find my post to read like a shakespear love poem in comparison.
I, for one, don't want to see that happen. And If you feel the same way, then i may suggest saving your late night writing inspirations for something that matters more than my attitude. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'll always be me.
I look forward to the continued input from fellow jamusers.
-Alex |
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harroyo
Posts:9
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| 10/18/2007 12:52 AM |
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| Good luck with that. |
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