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T. Kyle Gentry
Posts:25
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| 09/28/2007 11:32 AM |
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Okay you know how it goes. You get a call from a prospective client and they want you to illustrate or design their "fill in the blank" project. They give you the details of the project and what the work is meant to do, say, etc. You ask them about the rights they wish to purchase... all copyright, first printing rights, etc. and when the deadline for the various parts of the project are. Then they ask what your hourly rate is or what the project will cost. You take a moment to total up using all the information and give them a rate/fee. There is silence on the other end for a moment. "I didn't realize it would cost that much"
How can we as artists educate the client world on what the cost of our creativity is realistically? How can we make them understand that what looks easy to them... sketching out an idea and then rendering it, isn't easy and it took years of talent driven training and practical experience to accomplish what to them is just drawing and painting.
Now I know some clients are good and know exactly how much creativity costs. Most aren't.
I would love for us to be able to make commentary on this sometimes frustrating subject matter.
Let's Discuss |
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Jess Perna Studio
Posts:10
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| 09/28/2007 12:43 PM |
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The first step is simply not giving it away. You will lose more than you get but if you are selling quality it simply costs more and everyone cannot afford it. Don't work cheap! It brings down the whole industry.
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T. Kyle Gentry
Posts:25
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| 09/28/2007 12:52 PM |
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You make a great point that quality simply costs more. I have had a few clients that want to get everything for almost nothing and then are insulted when you refuse to be suckered. I wonder if it's that they really don't understand the value of it, if they are simply trying to get the most they can afford (or think they can), or if there are too many beginning artists who are cutting the market prices making it hard for everybody.
Another good point... Contract and Freelance Artists have a professional responsibility to the industry they work in to keep moving and pushing forward. Working cheap damages us all. |
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Constance Rose
Posts:10
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| 10/16/2007 8:30 PM |
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I could not agree more. Sometimes it is hard, but you have to hold out for what you assess your own value to be. Having learned this lesson the hard way, I simply will not compromise on price anymore. I find that I get more of the caliber of client that I want to work with, anyway. I think with the advent of desktop publishing and the accessibility of a computer, layout program and a few fonts that people think it is child's play. All of us who have spent our midnight hours sweating bullets know better!
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Walczyk & Young Studios
Posts:13
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| 10/23/2007 6:54 PM |
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Great thread! As Constance has pointed out, you will get the type of client you want by not compromising. We have recently turned over management of two websites to a new company for a single client. He would like to think that we are crestfallen and hopes that there are "no hard feelings." Quite the contrary! He forgets that we have invited him to take his business elsewhere on three separate ocaissions when he felt he was paying too much for our services. It took him two years to leave!
The whole world wants more for less these days! The advice to hold your ground is the only advice. Devaluing your work and compromising your price structure only starts a downward spiral. Our former client will eventually learn that he is paying more for what he already had -- great quality at a fair and reasonable price. |
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Luc
Posts:5
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| 10/31/2007 8:26 AM |
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I agree with you. I had a client thatwas saying my estimate was too expensive. I told him that I provide professional quality and follow-ups once that work has been delivered (adding I could provide him with technical support when or if he wants to go to press with it). He decided to get the job done by someone else. A month alter, a came back to me and gave the work. The work was for a logo design. I asked him why his change of mind? After a month and several presentation, he didn't received any acceptable proposition the his selected graphic artist. He still had to pay him for the work done. It took me about 3 days to do the work, made one presentation, and the client was all smile. That was 5 years ago. And he his still my client...
As everyone above said, select clients that respect your fees for what it means in service and deliverable. The others? Well you never know they may one day just come back to you better inform. |
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Dreamspeaker Graphics
Posts:38
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| 11/04/2007 5:40 AM |
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I personally would like to know if there is a industry standard to go by.
I have worked for a prepress house for the past 10 years and always find it difficult to come up with a base price when working freelance, as I am not privy to cost and price for the company I work for.
What method does everyone use for setting price and cost for work does everyone use?
Pete
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Allan Burch
Posts:61
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| 11/04/2007 1:37 PM |
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Pete,
I typically base my illustration pricing on a few factors. I consult the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (now in its 12th edition). This gives me a rough idea of what is being charged for a particular usage and application. I also factor in my cost of doing business. I should charge X-amount per hour to cover my business expenses and pay myself a wage for the month. Of course, I'll factor in other variables that come into play, but this is my basic process.
Certain stock houses have contributed to the challenges illustrators face in assigning value to their work. They are able to acquire inventory (illustration for stock) for very little, if not free from willing artists. They are then able to under-price to the market, take a 50% cut, leaving the artist with pennies on the dollar, do a disservice in educating clients (and artists) about the value of our work, and still make a tidy profit.
Since independent contractors are bound by the laws of collusion, we're prevented from setting base pricing amongst ourselves, which helps give the unconscientious illustration purchaser greater leverage in contributing to the driving down of fees.
Knowledge is power, and perhaps the best tool we have for the betterment of our industry is to impart knowledge. The young professionals who are most susceptible to doing the wrong thing need to be educated. The not-so-young professionals need to continue to be business-savvy. When applicable, clients can be gently reminded. And, as a group, illustrators can stand together against deals that are less than professional. |
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jjstanley
Posts:3
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| 11/04/2007 3:49 PM |
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| This is something I have always struggled with as well. Sometimes it is very difficult to estimate a job but I have come to the place where I estimate very high now compared to what I think the job will require. First it weeds out the clients that are not serious, second it gives me some room to work so I am not stressing about making it work in budget, and third I usually come in well under budget and the customer loves it! |
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mt4design
Posts:13
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| 11/30/2007 1:23 PM |
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I used to struggle with this too. Eh, it's still something I struggle with.
However, an old pro taught me a valuable lesson one day with some excellent advice.
"Never be ashamed to make a profit. If they're in business, they intend on making money. They should respect the fact that you are as well."
Never be ashamed to make a BIG profit. Discounting work only hurts the community as a whole.
Putting that in to practice certainly isn't easy though.
Mike |
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Michael Adams
Posts:9
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| 12/08/2007 11:44 AM |
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Hi Mike
I would edit your comment to say, "Never be ashamed to make a BIG profit."
Here's my two cents worth: My business plan is to demonstrate value to a client, and then be the most expensive source from that point on. A surprisingly large number of clients actually want the best work available, and are willing to pay for it. But if you don't impress the client, or worse, if someone else impresses them more, that puts you in a no-man's-land. I work with the belief that the only best work, which usually means work that directly contributes to a client's bottom line, should ever be presented. (Althouugh one valuable presentation trick involves showing at least one solution that is terrible, because everyone, clients included, loves to be a critic. Let them criticize the heck out of the one you know is the loss leader. Then point out how promising the other work looks by comparison.) When I show the best work, I am usually able to explain to a client why that's true (if I don't know why, the client certainly won't know why). Once you have the client's trust like that, you can calmly invoice them from that wonderful position at the top of that slippery slope we call billing. Someone once told me that if 10% of your billing is not contested, you are not billing high enough, meaning that you can pretty much tell what the market will bear when there is a serious resistence to a bill every now and then. Since then, I have been billing much more, and just as predicted, I get a complaint, or at least a discussion, on about 5% of my billing. I always cheerfully lower the bill, usually asking the client, "What would you like to pay." Clients are almost always willing to pay more if the number is something they have said in response to that question.
Michael Adams
Jamuse member since November 07
Behind the Scenes Marketing |
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VincentT
Posts:64
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| 12/10/2007 10:52 PM |
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I am also in the same basic local of thinking on this as michael adams, who by the way shares a friend of mine's name. :)
I have had similar situations, I usually will discuss with the client what is needed and involved for the project to be completed, then I break down the costs, time, and resources it will take, then I discuss "their" budget with them, that is so I avoid actually asking them "how much money do you have?", this makes the client feel more at ease, you know what they can afford, they know what it will essentially take and you can work from there. You shouldn't sell cheap just to get the sale, in the end, if it is an important project, they will pay, if not, they will go elsewhere and likely find that they were better off with you on overall quality and value. I am about to go to bed, but I will be able to post a more complete post in the morning. |
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T. Kyle Gentry
Posts:25
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| 12/11/2007 6:20 PM |
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WOW! So happy that the thread has struck a nerve! Read this and you'll understand why I posted this. I got it off of a discussion board on another sight. You wouldn't believe the crap that people have said against it! How many people out there who call themselves artists actually agree to do things free? You'd be surprised. They are ruining themselves AND us. Take a look at this great article on the subject: (BTW) This should be the freelancers bible for ethics and pricing!)
SAY NO TO FREE ART - Author unknown-
Every day, there are more and more posts on here seeking "artists" for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what they're NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are "seeking artists", let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?
More than likely, you don't know any. Otherwise, you wouldn't be posting on here to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the "opportunity" to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him "a few bucks" for "materials". What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered "yes" to ANY of the above, you're obviously insane. If you answered "no", then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a "great opportunity" for an artist to have his work seen on your car/'zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a "great opportunity" for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a "student" or "beginner" in an attempt to get work for free. It's ignorant and insulting. They may be "students", but that does not mean they don't deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a "student" once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it's one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their "portfolio". They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It's not compensation. It's their right, and it's a given.
4. Stop thinking that you're giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need "experience". But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the "experience" they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother's house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to "submit work for consideration". They may even be posing as some sort of "contest". These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the "contest", or be "chosen" for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or "spec", work. It's risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely.
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them. Say NO to free art.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free. please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you're accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
If you agree with the above important information, please pass it along. The more people know, the faster we can correct this. |
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Christopher
Posts:8
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| 12/15/2007 3:17 PM |
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I completely agree with the sentiments stated previously. All too often, I find potential clients who act "shocked" at project estimates and get somewhat aggressive about their point of view. My solution has simply be to stick to my guns and not compromise. Unfortuately, I sometimes do not get a few projects but it is my way of thinking that most likely - those particular projects were not something I needed to be involved with anyway.
As artists and professionals, we need to work together to change people's perceptions on what we do and the value of it. People need to realize the work that goes on behind the scenes to produce whatever media is needed for their project and that quality and professionalism go hand in hand. As the old adage states, you get what you pay for.
I'm interested in reading more on this topic - your perceptions are illuminating. |
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VincentT
Posts:64
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| 12/17/2007 7:03 PM |
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| Man! I don't know that I could have worded it better myself without some long thinking and a weekend. I have to admit that on the rare occasion, I have given a 'discounted price' to a friend or family member, but I have never, and will never do anything for free. it goes against everything I believe in. :D Honestly though, there are likely cases in which most of us may do something free, like for our grandparents or something, but for someone to ask for a service that most pay for to be free is truly insane, I call it the George Bush school of thought. :P At any rate, a big issue in our field is that if one of us does something for free, we will all be expected to do it, which is not going to happen. Also, many people think that "designers are a dime a dozen", but the fact is that GOOD designers are about as rare as Microsoft being innovative and creative. Please Note that I will be spreading this all over. :D |
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T. Kyle Gentry
Posts:25
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| 12/20/2007 4:01 PM |
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| Fantastic!! The more people get the idea... the more likely we will at some point in our careers have more clients who understand the worth of the skills which we have been given. Great craftsman/women make art look easy because they are so practiced and GOOD at it. That doesn't mean it IS easy. Keep the comments and thoughts coming everybody. A professional artistic community can accomplish anything if they can show people their worth. |
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Arty4ever
Posts:2
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| 01/02/2008 4:57 PM |
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I determine my rates based on 3 factors:
How complex the project is.
How quick the turn-a-round is, and
How many usage rights are requested.
I agree with Allan Burch (above) that the Graphic Artists Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines Handbook is a great source to make sure you are not charging too little. Check it out at: http://gag.org
We are all in this together.
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VincentT
Posts:64
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| 01/03/2008 12:01 AM |
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| I sometimes add a little to the price if the client is the micromanaging type and spends hours calling me about when the job will be ready. :) |
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T. Kyle Gentry
Posts:25
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| 01/03/2008 8:30 AM |
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Posted By VincentT on 01/03/2008 12:01 AM
I sometimes add a little to the price if the client is the micromanaging type and spends hours calling me about when the job will be ready. :)
Me Too! That is just more of my time the client is paying for. I had one that was a relatively small client that thought he could call me late into the night with questions. I finally had to lay the law down, finished the project, and we haven't worked together since. That's the kind I can do without. 
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betzhb
Posts:15
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| 04/24/2008 12:45 AM |
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| This is a great thread and full of solid information for any artist. My dad was an artist and had problems with this issue all his life. I'm not always comfortable with the money issues and my daughter, who is studying to be a designer, finds herself in similar situations where she's expected to be grateful for the "exposure". I'm not sure that people necessarily mean to rip you off, but they do it anyway and unless you have guidance and a clear understanding of the reality of it (as has been so beautifully explained here) it's easy to get taken. It's true, the people that work in these fields have rare talent and training and need to be compensated fairly. Great discussion. Thanks so much... |
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mt4design
Posts:13
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| 06/18/2008 11:08 AM |
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Just got back here and saw Michael's suggestion... so I changed it.
Never be ashamed to make a BIG profit.
It's our career. If we don't respect ourselves then the client surely wont.
Mike |
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